12:04:45 <danshearer_> #startmeeting 
12:04:45 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Meeting started at 2022-02-18T12:04+0000
12:04:46 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Current chairs: danshearer_
12:04:47 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Useful commands: #action #info #idea #link #topic #motion #vote #close #endmeeting
12:04:48 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: See also: https://hcoop-meetbot.readthedocs.io/en/stable/
12:04:58 <danshearer_> #meetingname General Full-team Review
12:04:58 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Meeting name set to: General Full-team Review
12:05:05 <danshearer_> #here Dan Shearer
12:05:10 <rubdos[m]> #here Ruben
12:05:16 <Labhraich> #here Claudio
12:05:24 <BKJ621> #here Björn
12:05:32 <gabby_bch> #here Gabby
12:05:32 <danshearer_> #topic Reviewing from last meeting
12:06:02 <danshearer_> #item Gabby has got lots of benchmarks, so that's done, and we can more-or-less keep them coming
12:06:02 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Unknown command: #item
12:06:29 <danshearer_> #item Ruben did a great job, there is a working cluster, we have a little refining perhaps to do but basically it is there to make it sweat for us.
12:06:29 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Unknown command: #item
12:07:13 <danshearer_> oops
12:07:15 <danshearer_> I meant
12:07:40 <danshearer_> #info Gabby has got lots of benchmarks, so that's done, and we can more-or-less keep them coming
12:07:49 <danshearer_> #info Ruben did a great job, there is a working cluster, we have a little refining perhaps to do but basically it is there to make it sweat for us.
12:08:20 <danshearer_> #info Ruben carries over the action of committing BibLaTeX
12:08:26 <rubdos[m]> I sadly didn't do a lot of reading this week, as I planned, due to overhead, but that should be settled after today.
12:08:39 <rubdos[m]> Reading and BibLaTeX will go hand-in-hand, basically
12:08:54 <danshearer_> #info Björn sent out a reminder and here we are, so it worked.
12:09:29 <danshearer_> There's another section on benchmarking and stuff, but specifically as to actions from last meeting, I think we covered it.
12:09:53 <danshearer_> Anyone disagree or do we move on?
12:10:05 <Labhraich> remains silent
12:10:22 <danshearer_> Labhraich said something, so he wasn't silent
12:10:31 <danshearer_> #topic Benchmarking
12:10:35 <danshearer_> Oh boy
12:11:18 <danshearer_> #info Claudio anchored a really busy round of testing, bugfixing and improvements
12:11:42 <Labhraich> Yes, and as a result I didn't do much in the way of metadata...
12:11:54 <danshearer_> #info Benchmarking is now partly-concurrent (ie can be used on a shared cluster) as well as much more user-friendly
12:12:28 <danshearer_> #info There are now three people in the world who have run a benchmark and shared the results (Claudio, me and Ruben).
12:12:28 <Labhraich> It also now works on some non-Linux systems (NetBSD and FreeBSD), which was previously untested
12:13:12 <danshearer_> #info Benchmarking is now portable to more operating systems (NetBSD and FreeBSD), and does a lot more autodetection
12:14:28 <danshearer_> #info Dan has drafted a summary of our first results, intended for sharing with the small group of people with commit access to SQLite, LMDB or Fossil.
12:14:37 <danshearer_> Sooo
12:14:40 <rubdos[m]> Maybe worth mentioning that CPU information is also included in the benchmark file now
12:14:44 <rubdos[m]> pretty much automatically
12:15:37 <danshearer_> #info Benchmarking now automatically includes CPU info, and has a good try at including disk info. This is a work in progress, but extremely helpful in interpreting results.
12:16:01 <gabby_bch> I am working on the plotting app for the bencmarking results, I could put my R code on github layer today
12:16:04 <Labhraich> and we have a start of a tool and a procedure to combine results from people
12:16:17 <danshearer_> #info One thing we are aware of but have not started to solve is that it would be very useful to have a reasonably reliable Machine ID. There are many problems and opportunities with this idea.
12:16:42 <rubdos[m]> That'll be pretty difficult with the Kube system, although it probably does expose some magic env var for that
12:17:05 <rubdos[m]> standard hostname will be very random...
12:17:14 <Labhraich> If it has a CPU and/or a local disk... they both have serial numbers
12:17:23 <danshearer_> #info Claudio has created the start of a tool and a procedure to combine results from people. It works for trusted people driving it manually.
12:17:48 <danshearer_> gabby_bch, are you ok to take an action on putting up your R code?
12:18:20 <danshearer_> #action Gabby to commit R code and some sample results
12:18:30 <danshearer_> well too late, this moves fast :-)
12:18:31 <gabby_bch> ok
12:19:25 <danshearer_> rubdos[m], I see your point about machine Id being harder inside a shared cluster, however, that is also a fairly homogenous system from the point of view of high-level benchmarking like we are doing now.
12:19:45 <rubdos[m]> Yes, it'll be very possible, but also very kube-specific
12:19:53 <danshearer_> At the moment we are noticing big differences. I suspect usually per-node differences will be relatively small.
12:20:12 <danshearer_> So Kube machine id probably isn't important.
12:21:16 <rubdos[m]> exactly
12:21:23 <danshearer_> We did notice that there is a concept from DBUS and systemd and a package called nosh that creates a /etc/machine-id or /local/etc/machine-id in a standard form. But these are dependencies that won't be in your average container. So, that's for another day.
12:21:36 <Labhraich> We could just have a way to specify one manually for clusters or places where there isn't a reliable one.  It's mostly so we can filter things "by system", and if we can get one automatically, great, if not...
12:22:17 <Labhraich> I'm not sure nosh helps at all.  All it does is to copy information from elsewhere into /etc
12:22:35 <danshearer_> Ok, yes, I bet we can come up with a name for the entire cluster. If it says "VUB Cluster" then there will be someone responsible we can say "hey, look at this weird thing" and they will get all offended until it is fixed.
12:22:42 <danshearer_> Ok so in summary
12:22:58 <danshearer_> 1. Benchmarking is now super-excellently further forward than it was a week ago
12:23:34 <danshearer_> 2. We are within hours of presenting this to a group of 30-40 developers, and we are confident they can understand it and use it if they are motivated to do so.
12:23:59 <rubdos[m]> Like with the CPU_var_thingy we can just override those metadata pretty easily
12:24:09 <danshearer_> 3. There are still lots of results hiding inside this data, and more data needed, and quite possible improvements from the kinds of people we will be inviting to review.
12:24:25 <danshearer_> Anything more?
12:24:33 <danshearer_> I do want to add this to the notes...
12:25:43 <danshearer_> #info Dan wanted to make the point that the benchmarking that has been built is already at the top of its class. You cannot get anything comparable for other storage software, certainly not in a collaborative tool like this. Very well done.
12:26:32 <Labhraich> There's probably some more things benchmkark-filter can do to help making sense of results.  But once we have a machine ID of some form that'll make things easier.  A filter which returns data from an ARM32 with a SD card as well as from an Intel Xeon with a NVME will give out numbers which won't make sense
12:26:42 <danshearer_> #action Dan to send out benchmarking document v0.5 (or v0.6 if there is feedback from the team today).
12:27:08 <Labhraich> I haven't had a chance to read v0.5 today but will do that as soon as the meeting ends
12:27:41 <danshearer_> Ok, anything more on benchmarking?
12:28:12 <danshearer_> moving on
12:28:14 <rubdos[m]> Apart from Dan shooting more benches at the cluster as an #action
12:28:18 <rubdos[m]> I don't think so :)
12:29:00 <danshearer_> #action Dan to submit jobs to the VUB cluster and amalgamate the results
12:29:41 <danshearer_> Ok then
12:30:17 <danshearer_> we have our previous-agreed tasks and I'll summarise them in a simple note in a sec
12:30:32 <danshearer_> #topic Physical meeting
12:30:40 <danshearer_> this will be very brief.
12:30:45 <danshearer_> VUB says "yes"
12:31:02 <rubdos[m]> our groups says yes, and we'll force VUB to allow it ;-)
12:31:13 <rubdos[m]> potato potato
12:31:15 <danshearer_> I am working on a suggestion to arrive with Labhraich but I don't have a final answer on that
12:31:34 <danshearer_> rubdos[m] is eating root vegetables it seems
12:31:53 <rubdos[m]> carrots, indeed
12:32:00 <rubdos[m]> and potatoes too now I notice
12:32:09 <danshearer_> BKJ621 says yes and is cool with driving if not trains
12:32:13 <BKJ621> only question from me: when? + some info on practicalities
12:32:34 <danshearer_> gabby_bch is cool with jumping on a plane last we mentioned it, no sweat
12:32:40 <rubdos[m]> I'll gladly come and fetch people around if necessary
12:32:57 <rubdos[m]> that includes Charleroi airport
12:32:59 <rubdos[m]> within .be borders
12:33:06 <danshearer_> #info Ruben has offered car transport within Belgium eg Charleroi
12:33:07 <Labhraich> Trains from here seem impossible at the moment.  And there's just been a new problem, a strike which means only 25% of the trains from here are running
12:33:23 <danshearer_> I am considering flying to Limoges and driving with Claudio
12:33:32 <Labhraich> I could be persuaded to that :-)
12:34:02 <danshearer_> I got stuck on accommodation.
12:34:10 <Labhraich> rubdos[m]: can you let us know what we need to get into Belgium?  I assume vaccination certificate at a minimum
12:34:30 <rubdos[m]> They still change it every now and then, but I'd gladly find it out
12:35:31 <danshearer_> I looked it up and since I am the only one who is not an EU citizen and not coming from the EU it's a little stricter for me. Altho Scotland is not quite so aggressive as England (eg still have masks on public transport and in shops and nobody minds.)
12:35:44 <danshearer_> But even then nothing bad. I have had 3 shots.
12:36:03 <danshearer_> ooh I am going to try a new meetbot command
12:36:27 <danshearer_> #help Dan needs a hand to locate accommodation in Brussels
12:36:52 <Labhraich> danshearer_: I think the LMDB timing on test 8 is even worse than what I said earlier...  multiplying the number of SELECTs by 5 multiplies the time by 3657
12:37:14 <Labhraich> Before you send that draft out...
12:37:24 <danshearer_> Labhraich, I have a size 5 or two to look at I think
12:37:39 <rubdos[m]> danshearer_:  we can try the U residence, but that might be both expensive *and* unavailable
12:37:44 <danshearer_> I will add the word "extreme" in the summary points
12:38:01 <danshearer_> I looked up the U residence, and there are waitlists on all categories. It's term time.
12:38:07 <danshearer_> I tried to find youth hostels
12:38:15 <danshearer_> Because BKJ621 is so very young
12:38:25 <BKJ621> haha
12:38:33 <BKJ621> in mind
12:38:43 <rubdos[m]> Maybe look at fosdem-related pages for accomodation?
12:39:21 <danshearer_> If it wasn't a pandemic I would have already had offers of accomodation from locals I should think. But we can't have that fun at the moment.
12:40:37 <danshearer_> rubdos[m], for something like Fosdem I always hate having to travel from accommodation, so I get something close. But to you as a local, is there somewhere that is very practical and just 15 minutes away (especially when there are not ten thousand people looking for the same thing?)
12:41:10 <rubdos[m]> the problem is, VUB is enclosed in normal urban area
12:41:16 <rubdos[m]> so normal Brusseleirs live here
12:41:30 <gabby_bch> i'd say airBnB
12:41:49 <danshearer_> gabby_bch, I looked but I am not clever, so I probably didn't do a good jbo
12:42:11 <danshearer_> Let's get some actions on this
12:42:41 <rubdos[m]> #action Ruben to ask internally at VUB for places to stay
12:42:46 <danshearer_> rubdos[m], can you advise on transport? I know there's a bus, but I have only been on it when it was entirely unsuitable for a pandemic
12:43:11 <rubdos[m]> From where to where, exactly?
12:43:24 <rubdos[m]> Brussels public transport is pretty alright
12:43:25 <BKJ621> I have never done airbnb otherwise I have vounteered
12:43:50 <danshearer_> to == VUB. from == $anywhere nearby.
12:44:01 <rubdos[m]> 71 and 95 then
12:44:17 <danshearer_> ack on Rubdos claiming Brusselers don't want to sit on other passengers or squeeze them tight on bussses any more.
12:44:20 <rubdos[m]> there's also the semi-close metro 5 and the close tram lines 7, 25 and semi-close 81
12:44:43 <danshearer_> ooh I know nothing about metro near VUB. That sounds like a good way to teleport from say airbnb
12:44:46 <rubdos[m]> Well, I don't mind relatively packed busses too much in normal circumstances
12:44:48 <Labhraich> I've used airbnb once (unintentionally - it was booked via booking.com not via airbnb) and it was all right.  Dan visited me there to have coffee :-)
12:45:04 <danshearer_> I've used airbnb lots of times.
12:45:10 <danshearer_> I can see why communities hate it.
12:45:33 <rubdos[m]> Try not to get an AirBNB in the west side of Brussels and transport should be fine
12:45:52 <danshearer_> Yes, in fact that is where I said to Claudio "I've got this thing I'm doing with SQLite" and he said "poor boy, you are doing it all wrong".
12:46:22 <danshearer_> #info Accommodation not on the West of Brussels and transport is good
12:46:38 <danshearer_> can someone volunteer to spend 20 minutes on airbnb.com ?
12:46:51 <BKJ621> yes
12:46:55 <Labhraich> I can see a number of hotels near VUB.  THere are 2 types of them: "cost 1000 Euro a night" and "unavailable during that week"
12:46:55 <rubdos[m]> volunteer is invited to cross check addresses with me
12:47:31 <rubdos[m]> That sounds like Etterbeek and Oudergem, you should probably try hotels in Elsene instead, those will vary more in price
12:47:31 <danshearer_> #action Björn too look up AirBNB in Brussels, checking with Ruben, and looking for any week in March if dates are difficult
12:47:46 <Labhraich> But we really need to agree on a day because the rest of the planning really depends on that
12:47:50 <danshearer_> rubdos[m], Elsene is no good that week
12:48:04 <danshearer_> I even tried the Dutch name but it was no better.
12:48:09 <Labhraich> Yes, I did look at Elsene.  That's the one "unavailable that week"
12:48:25 <rubdos[m]> Ah damnit.
12:48:32 <rubdos[m]> Ixelles is the French name
12:48:41 <rubdos[m]> Excuse my French.
12:48:43 <danshearer_> How about "the week in March where accommodation is easiest in Brussels?"
12:49:01 <danshearer_> Oh I see
12:49:40 <rubdos[m]> I'm one of those annoying people that use the unused Dutch names.
12:49:46 <danshearer_> #info parking a car is difficult/expensive in Brussels, but allegedly not a problem further out
12:49:57 <Labhraich> Actually I had a hotel in Ixelles/Elsene during FOSDEM, so I've looked there first
12:50:00 <rubdos[m]> I know the free spots
12:50:04 <rubdos[m]> for parking
12:50:05 <danshearer_> rubdos[m], booking.com uses Elsene. Which sounds French to me.
12:50:08 <rubdos[m]> but don't come with large vehicles.
12:50:16 <BKJ621> How many days in Brussels?
12:50:28 <BKJ621> What is a large vehicle?
12:50:29 <rubdos[m]> danshearer_: Elsene misses at least two accents in order to be a French name ;)
12:50:30 <danshearer_> #info Ruben knows the free spots for parking a small vehicle
12:50:45 <rubdos[m]> SUV is doable, anything over that is at least annoying to park
12:50:51 <Labhraich> Êlsèné?
12:51:03 <rubdos[m]> Don't do motorhomes. :-)
12:51:12 <danshearer_> No, rúbdòs
12:51:17 <rubdos[m]> Êlsèné or Êlsénè inded
12:51:30 <rubdos[m]> I see you all have compose keys preinstalled. Good.
12:51:44 <danshearer_> Björn said I had to
12:51:55 <Labhraich> Since I use a UK keyboard, it would be impossible to write any French without compose keys
12:51:58 <danshearer_> So I said yës
12:52:33 <rubdos[m]> åwsöme
12:52:45 <danshearer_> ok maybe I am familiar with compose keys
12:53:25 <danshearer_> do we agree that accommodation drives dates in march?
12:53:52 <BKJ621> We must agree on #of days too
12:53:58 <danshearer_> #accepted We meet in march when accommodation is possible and Björn/etc will tell us that
12:54:30 <Labhraich> Yes, number of days is as important as start date...
12:54:44 <danshearer_> #motion I propose we say the minimum number of days to meet in Brussels is two, with no maximum
12:54:44 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Voting is open
12:54:56 <Labhraich> It does feel like too long a journey for 1 day of meeting (unless somehow the pandemic disappears completely and we can get there in full comfort again)
12:55:19 <Labhraich> #vote +1
12:55:23 <danshearer_> #vote +`
12:55:28 <danshearer_> #vote +1
12:55:32 <rubdos[m]> #vote +1
12:55:49 <BKJ621> #vote +1
12:55:51 <gabby_bch> #vote +1
12:55:56 <danshearer_> #close 
12:55:56 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Motion accepted: 6 in favor to 0 opposed
12:55:57 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: In favor: Labhraich, danshearer_, danshearer_, rubdos[m], BKJ621, gabby_bch
12:55:58 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Opposed:
12:56:18 <Labhraich> Interesting.  The bot lets people vote multiple times
12:56:36 <danshearer_> I though I made an invalid vote
12:56:46 <danshearer_> finished on meeting in Brussels
12:56:52 <BKJ621> should we plan for at least 2 full days in Brussels?
12:57:00 <danshearer_> I think final topic is reminder on agreed jobs
12:57:00 <Labhraich> Have we discussed when?
12:57:25 <BKJ621> Dan indicates some "marketting" activity too
12:57:33 <danshearer_> Labhraich, I thought we said accommodation had to drive it? We picked a week but there is no room in Brussels that week.
12:58:24 <Labhraich> OK
12:58:32 <danshearer_> This is not my favourite activity, by which I mean, I am not very good at it.
12:58:36 <BKJ621> sorry: I missed the motin. I am happy with that
12:58:46 <BKJ621> motion
12:58:55 <BKJ621> Keyboard is bas
12:59:04 <danshearer_> I just said "#accepted" which I can type at any time. Even if in fact nobody really accepted it :-)
12:59:34 <danshearer_> #accepted We meet for a minimum of two days in Brussels, with no upper limit.
12:59:52 <danshearer_> BKJ621, you have a very good point
12:59:57 <danshearer_> I really did say that.
13:00:13 <danshearer_> I have warned NLnet that there is a meeting and they are invited
13:00:31 <danshearer_> I want to do a presentation open to the public, including security people who work in Brussels
13:00:54 <danshearer_> None of which I can really do without a date
13:01:12 <danshearer_> #action Dan to coordinate marketing activities with NLnet, VUB and others once a date is agreed
13:02:00 <danshearer_> that meeting would be say 1 hour at the end of the two days, or something. Perhaps 2 hours, 1 being super technical and good for VUB staff, and 1 being "what this stuff means for society"
13:02:23 <danshearer_> I note that time is moving on.
13:02:42 <danshearer_> are we finished with #brussmeet?
13:03:01 <BKJ621> yes
13:03:07 <Labhraich> Nothing else from me
13:03:40 <rubdos[m]> me neither
13:03:45 <danshearer_> #info Dan proposes 1 hour public presentation on LumoSQL super technical and good for VUB staff, and 1 hour for security people and so on "what this stuff means for society"
13:03:59 <danshearer_> #topic Reminder to ourselves about jobs in progress
13:04:27 <danshearer_> #info Ruben is doing academic reading and noting papers, with BibLaTex commits to LumoSQL tree
13:04:44 <danshearer_> #info Gabby continues on graphs and also a docs task active
13:05:09 <danshearer_> #info Claudio is back on metadata, which is a requirement for hidden columns, encryption etc
13:05:55 <danshearer_> #info Dan is on Lumions/reading too; coordinating feedback with other project authors, looking at marketing for March Meeting and other things.
13:06:12 <danshearer_> #info Björn needs to talk to Dan about NLnet claims
13:06:26 <danshearer_> Anything else?
13:06:39 <BKJ621> nothing from me
13:07:04 <rubdos[m]> Sounds fine to me! I'd love to hear the distinction between "security people" and "super technical staff", but that can wait until another time
13:07:54 <BKJ621> And where does the NLnet people fit & other people w/ money
13:08:14 <danshearer_> yes ok, I will followup on those items
13:08:26 <danshearer_> #action Dan to circulate notes on marketing audiences
13:08:41 <Labhraich> I have a few things to add about the draft document, which I'll do in the next half an hour or so.  After that I really need to concentrate on metadata and treat benchmarking as a distraction
13:08:56 <danshearer_> #action Dan and Björn to discuss funding
13:09:03 <danshearer_> ok!
13:09:05 <danshearer_> we are done!
13:09:09 <danshearer_> Thankyou everyone
13:09:22 <danshearer_> #closemeeting 
13:09:22 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer_: Unknown command: #closemeeting
13:09:27 <danshearer_> #endmeeting