11:56:28 <danshearer> #startmeeting 
11:56:28 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Meeting started at 2022-02-04T11:56+0000
11:56:29 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Current chairs: danshearer
11:56:30 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Useful commands: #action #info #idea #link #topic #motion #vote #close #endmeeting
11:56:31 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: See also: https://hcoop-meetbot.readthedocs.io/en/stable/
11:56:50 <danshearer> #meetingname LumoSQL Meeting 2002/02/04
11:56:50 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Meeting name set to: LumoSQL Meeting 2002/02/04
11:57:06 <Labhraich> #here Claudio
11:57:30 <danshearer> #here Dan
11:57:45 <danshearer> (you would think it knows that, but we'll see what the log does with it :-)
11:58:29 <danshearer> I will now make a note before topics start
11:58:32 <Labhraich> According to the docs, it documents who's attending, and if you don't say your name it'll just use the IRC nick.  Which may work for some people
11:59:01 <danshearer> changes nick to "ptachyderm" to copy Labhraich
11:59:29 <danshearer> #note Ruben may be presenting in his Rust conference now
11:59:29 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Unknown command: #note
11:59:42 <danshearer> #topic introduction
12:00:01 <danshearer> #note Ruben is probably giving a talk on rust at the moment
12:00:01 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Unknown command: #note
12:00:23 <danshearer> #info Ruben is probably giving a talk on Rust at the moment
12:01:03 <danshearer> welcome Björn, Gabby. You can say "#here Gabby/Björn" to set your preferred names in the notes
12:01:16 <rubdos[m]> #here Ruben
12:01:25 <danshearer> welcome
12:01:27 <BKJ621> #here Björn
12:01:28 <rubdos[m]> Ruben gave all talks yesterday!
12:01:41 <danshearer> #info Ruben definitely not giving a Rust talk
12:01:45 <Labhraich> I hope they were well received
12:01:55 <rubdos[m]> They were, apparently!
12:02:02 <gabby_bch> #here Gabby
12:02:08 <rubdos[m]> #info There'll be Rust videos in a few weeks.
12:02:10 <danshearer> ok so I don't know where the notes are from last time. That's why we have the meetbot. I think maybe Björn took them but frankly I can't remember
12:02:35 <danshearer> but otherwise I'd say # link this is where the notes from last meeeting are.
12:03:27 <Labhraich> I still have the IRC logs if nobody else has collected anything 2 weeks ago
12:03:30 <danshearer> #action Dan to locate notes from last meeting especially the actions
12:03:45 <danshearer> Was that 21st January?
12:03:52 <Labhraich> Oh I suppose I ought to have put an #info before the last sentence
12:03:55 <Labhraich> Yes, 21/2
12:04:25 <BKJ621> Björn dit not take any offical notes. Ought I?
12:04:56 <danshearer> #info no notes from last meeting. That's ok, from now on we have the Bot!
12:05:24 <Labhraich> #info I still have the IRC logs from 2022-01-21 if nobody else has collected anything 2 weeks ago
12:05:25 <danshearer> #link Notes from first meeting at https://lumosql.org/src/lumosql/file?name=doc/meetings/lumo-meeting-notes-2022-01-14.md
12:06:02 <danshearer> #action dan to look at irclogs from 2022-01-21
12:06:22 <danshearer> Agenda for today - who has been doing what
12:06:37 <danshearer> I will go first so you can see how it works
12:06:56 <danshearer> actually no, doing this by topic not person right?
12:07:05 <danshearer> #topic Documentation
12:07:11 <Uilebheist> #link https://ams.uilebheist.fr/lumosql-2022-01-21.txt
12:08:05 <danshearer> #info I have been working on two aspects of documentation: RFC and citations. RFC will be very important. We already have a lot of citations.
12:09:10 <rubdos[m]> #action Ruben to do the initial BibLaTeX dump into a Lumo repository.
12:09:16 <danshearer> #link the RFC page, including current RFC and info on the RFC toolchain, is at https://lumosql.org/src/lumosql/file?name=doc/rfc/README.md
12:09:58 <danshearer> #info Dan has discussed with Ruben and decided how we can handle citations. We will use BibLaTeX format files and generate what we need from that.
12:10:05 <BKJ621> #info : formality: I believe we had meetings Jan7 and Jan21. The notes say something else
12:10:23 <gabby_bch> #info I've been editing some of the docs, want to separate it into Phase one and Phase two topics, have not updated the repository yet because my editing is still so messy
12:10:38 <danshearer> BKJ621, thankyou. noted.
12:11:08 <rubdos[m]> #info Discussion between Dan and Ruben was mainly to see whether we would commit RDF files (which contain a lot more data) or Bib(La)TeX. The latter was chosen because it's got plenty of information and is very compatible with tools.
12:11:28 <danshearer> gabby_bch: There are many citations in the docs already, and zillions more relating to SQLite, key-value stores and other stuff. That's why I wanted to sort this out.
12:12:15 <danshearer> #accepted We will use BibLaTex for citations relating to Lumoions/RFC and also LumoSQL/SQLite/general topics
12:13:11 <danshearer> #info pandoc has a --biblatex filter, which can produce HTML, Markdown or most other things. So that's how we add citations to the RFC markdown, and also Gabby's documentation
12:13:11 <gabby_bch> sounds great
12:14:07 <danshearer> I had to understand what researchers are using these days... Zotero (which is what Ruben has) and other tools. Anyway, that's job done.
12:14:26 <danshearer> gabby_bch: don't be shy to commit messy things
12:15:31 <Labhraich> Trying to figure out how to ask pandoc to convert biblatex to something else.  --biblatex controls how to produce citations in LaTeX output, but the copy of pandoc I have doesn't seem to know how to read files in that format
12:15:54 <danshearer> gabby_bch: for your encouragement, this is from the Fossil documentation
12:16:05 <danshearer> "Git strives to record what the development of a project should have looked like had there been no mistakes.
12:16:05 <danshearer> Fossil, in contrast, puts more emphasis on recording exactly what happened, including all of the messy errors, dead-ends, experimental branches, and so forth.
12:16:51 <danshearer> gabby_bch: I will be right there the second you make a commit, promise :-)
12:17:02 <danshearer> I will get an email
12:18:03 <danshearer> #link Everyone can turn email notifications on/off for Fossil here: https://lumosql.org/src/lumosql/subscribe
12:18:17 <gabby_bch> haha that's the scary part, I will do this in the next day or two
12:19:14 <danshearer> I know its scary. I hope that quote from the Fossil website is encouraging.
12:19:26 <danshearer> I get scared by this too.
12:19:33 <Labhraich> If anything goes wrong there's always "fossil revert" and/or "fossil undo" (I notice how git doesn't appear to have an undo)
12:19:56 <danshearer> yes, or just commit a fix for the mess you just made.
12:20:23 <gabby_bch> thanks, good to know
12:21:34 <danshearer> gabby_bch, another cool thing is the timeline. For example, for some recent edits I made to the RFC: https://lumosql.org/src/lumosql/info/23a8f45a01378f3e
12:21:52 <BKJ621> To make faults are human. One could have a serious discussion on quality but that is OT now
12:23:11 <danshearer> so Gabby would you be ok to take an action to commit your work in the next week or so? If so, you can write something like "#action Gabby to commit draft docs for review" . (Mostly because I'm trying to get everyone used to using the meetbot :-)
12:24:09 <danshearer> Next topic is Lumo internals
12:24:10 <gabby_bch> #action Gabby to commit updated docs for review
12:24:36 <danshearer> #topic LumoSQL Development and Testing
12:25:05 <danshearer> sends thumbs up to gabby_bch
12:25:45 <danshearer> Labhraich, how has your thinking been going?
12:26:54 <Labhraich> Not very
12:27:22 <Labhraich> Not been a particularly good 2 weeks.  The vaccination put me out of action for days (but at least now I have had 3 doses of the thing)
12:28:19 <danshearer> You wrote a v0.0 doc on metadata
12:28:31 <Labhraich> That was before the last meeting mostly
12:28:57 <Labhraich> I note that there are newer versions of sqlite3 compared to the last time I ran any benchmarks, so I'll need to check the Lumo code still works on these
12:29:48 <danshearer> It was. I went over it yesterday and I have no objection. It can be committed, would you take an action on that?
12:29:50 <Labhraich> #idea modify the benchmark to be able to specify a version as "latest" so I don't need to commit changes when there's a new release of something
12:30:04 <Labhraich> And I guess if approved, I can have an action for that too
12:31:37 <Labhraich> "not-fork -q" already finds out what the latest version is, so it wouldn't be a large change, but would simplify making sure we keep up to date
12:32:30 <danshearer> #info SQLite 3.37.0 (the current latest) compiles on Dan's laptop using the LumoSQL build system by Claudio
12:33:06 <Labhraich> #info 3.37.2 fails to compile with the LMDB backend
12:33:50 <Labhraich> So that'll need figuring out.  I think a function type has changed
12:34:13 <danshearer> #accepted Claudio's draft metadata document can be committed (on the topic of adding metadata to SQLite for LumoSQL to have hidden columns etc)
12:34:50 <danshearer> Ok is that everything on LumoSQL programming internals?
12:35:39 <danshearer> well then the next topic is rubdos[m] ' thinking...
12:35:43 <rubdos[m]> (there'll be a "misc" topic too, right?)
12:35:43 <Labhraich> Yes, I guess I'll have to see the build failure with 3.37.2 - one of the parameters tosqlite3BtreeClearTable has changed
12:35:46 <rubdos[m]> or that!
12:35:51 <danshearer> and related from Claudio and others
12:36:40 <danshearer> #topic Lumions and Related Things
12:36:59 <danshearer> #info Claudio and Ruben have exchanged citations
12:37:34 <rubdos[m]> #info Claudio's work with prof. Varadayan has been sent to Ruben, Ruben has compiled it into bibtex and rdf
12:37:46 <danshearer> #info Dan has figured out the toolchain and got the author of mmark (which generates an RFC from Markdown) to update the docs regarding dependencies
12:38:25 <rubdos[m]> #info My schedule is now "clear"™ since the Rust meetup has finished yesterday, and since I did all the debriefing stuff. I should be able to focus 95% on literature as of this afternoon.
12:38:55 <danshearer> #info Dan *thinks* he has an example of everything we are likely to need in the RFC in the way of formatting. Including ASCII art
12:39:28 <danshearer> gabby_bch: I don't know if you are familiar with RFC documents? They are a prehistoric ancient dinosaur kind of text document that describes how all the Internet works.
12:39:45 <danshearer> So now we can write in Markdown and output the dinosaur format :-)
12:40:09 <danshearer> That's why it won't be like your docs.
12:40:39 <danshearer> rubdos[m]: whoohoo so not much more to say there
12:41:15 <danshearer> Ok so that's that topic finished
12:41:17 <danshearer> I think
12:41:18 <rubdos[m]> Yeh, don't have a lot more to say, except that the meetup was really fantastic :-)
12:42:35 <danshearer> great
12:43:00 <danshearer> Ok so next we have overall project stuff I guess
12:43:13 <danshearer> #topic Brief Notes on Project Admin
12:44:21 <danshearer> #action Dan to point everyone at the meetbot notes, which are both pretty HTML, and also the raw irc logs. We can decide if this is good, or needs editing.
12:44:56 <BKJ621> Not much from me. I have not started to plan the formal kickoff as I believe the Covid situation need to stabilize a bit. Btw: Sweden is open up Feb09, I have also got 3 vacc-shoots
12:45:40 <BKJ621> "Everyone" in Sweden has omicron
12:46:15 <danshearer> #info Dan has chatted with people from LibreOffice and NextCloud and a few other well-known projects about the concept of Lumions. It seems like maybe this is an idea the world is ready for. No detail of course since we don't even have a design yet.
12:47:10 <danshearer> BKJ621: That means a *lot* of people in Sweden will have long covid and its sideaffects for a long time.
12:47:20 <BKJ621> Let's continue to have these meeting Friday at 1300 cet every other week. Next is Feb18
12:47:54 <BKJ621> Yes, that is likely. The pressure on the hospitals are much lower though
12:47:59 <danshearer> #action Björn to remind everyone a few days before Feb 18 that there will be a meeting
12:48:11 <BKJ621> ok
12:48:39 <rubdos[m]> 👍️
12:49:01 <danshearer> #info I have populated a draft Leantime project management board, with URL in the wiki you all have access to. Probably not the perfect tool but I am confident extracting the data with SQL anyway.
12:49:53 <rubdos[m]> Björn, could you maybe send out ics-meeting invites, is that a thing I could request?
12:53:02 <BKJ621> Will do. Will sort out the format with Dan. I told Dan I am used to online or f2f meetings organized thru a calendar so this is a bit of learning experience to me.
12:53:02 <BKJ621> I have this meeting in my calendar with a reminder 4d ahead.
12:53:19 <Labhraich> 18/2 is fine by me
12:53:58 <danshearer> BKJ621 I think you mean a shared calendar
12:54:17 <danshearer> For example where everyone uses one organisational calendar, or Google Calendar, etc.
12:54:28 <BKJ621> Well. Not necessarily
12:54:57 <danshearer> rubdos[m]'s request for an invite was so we can all add it to our own calendars.
12:55:08 <BKJ621> shared calendars are tricky stuff
12:55:16 <danshearer> all right anything more on project admin?
12:55:28 <BKJ621> Aha. So simple
12:55:36 <rubdos[m]> Yeh, don't do shared cals, just create an event and send us the invite mail :-)
12:55:42 <rubdos[m]> reduces the work by N
12:55:45 <rubdos[m]> factor N
12:55:52 <BKJ621> Agree!!
12:56:04 <Labhraich> I have been forced to look at a shared calendar once.  I decided to leave the company as it was less stress
12:56:55 <danshearer> I think now we move to the last topic, "misc"
12:56:59 <Labhraich> However an invite email in a easily recognisable format may be made to go into my own calendar automatically, so that would make things easier
12:57:08 <danshearer> #topic Miscellaneous
12:57:33 <BKJ621> I will send out an invite. Let's see if the format is right
12:58:33 <danshearer> #info Dan tells everyone that if they can't work with the format, I will figure something out with Björn. This can be fixed quite easily if there is any problem.
12:58:43 <rubdos[m]> sends many thanks
12:58:47 <danshearer> Ok now Misc :-)
12:58:50 <Labhraich> Misc random thing. sometimes I'll want to discuss the internals of sqlite in a way which will send people running away from here.  Maybe we need a "lumosql-dev" channel here for this sort of things and for people who may be interested in that
12:58:56 <danshearer> rubdos[m], you had a "misc" ? ;-)
12:59:08 <rubdos[m]> I had a misc, but you made it a topic!
12:59:18 <rubdos[m]> My misc was "I didn't do a lot because overhead, but I'm free now!"
12:59:52 <danshearer> I guess I made it a topic because I can imagine that being a kind of regular permanent topic :-)
13:00:02 <rubdos[m]> Yes, indeed!
13:00:13 <danshearer> so Labhraich that's an item.
13:00:38 <gabby_bch> danshearer , could you send me the full benckmark result databse , I want to play with it in R
13:00:43 <danshearer> #idea Labhraich suggests creating a -dev channel
13:01:05 <danshearer> #action Dan to send gabby_bch a database of benchmark results
13:01:12 <Labhraich> gabby_bch: once I fixed the LMDB backend for use with sqlite >= 3.37 I can send you a benchmark database from that too
13:01:17 <danshearer> oooh no, gabby_bch I think you mean like a consolidated giant one?
13:01:32 <gabby_bch> yes a giant one please
13:02:03 <rubdos[m]> I don't mind a lot of sqlite-dev chatter in here, but I would then suggest we start using mentions a lot more.
13:02:17 <danshearer> I think that means me and Labhraich need to consolidate our various tests, which will include some from before the benchmarking was qutie like it is today but fine for your experiements
13:02:22 <Labhraich> Ah, that I think may require some work towards collecting separate benchmarks together... the code to do that is all there but it may need a decision on how to actually use it
13:02:50 <danshearer> #action Dan to followup with Labhraich regarding benchmark amalgamation code
13:02:57 <Labhraich> ack
13:03:00 <gabby_bch> Labhraich , that would be great , my email : balachninaite@protonmail.com
13:03:29 <danshearer> Labhraich, for the moment I second rubdos[m]' point on your -dev idea
13:04:03 <danshearer> #decided no -dev irc channel for at least the next two weeks
13:04:03 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Unknown command: #decided
13:04:12 <danshearer> #agreed no -dev irc channel for at least the next two weeks
13:04:12 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Unknown command: #agreed
13:04:20 <danshearer> #accepted no -dev irc channel for at least the next two weeks
13:04:23 <rubdos[m]> Even in #whisperfish I don't do -dev, although we are ~80 people and regularly do very chatty dev stuff
13:04:49 <danshearer> Samba split from samba into a new samba-technical after more than ten years
13:04:51 <rubdos[m]> Oh Björn, maybe also add Tom Godden  to the meeting invite.
13:04:56 <Labhraich> OK, don't complain when I start talking about the new functions Mr Hipp added to sqlite and which break the LMDB backend :-)
13:05:08 <danshearer> well look I did say "two weeks"
13:05:09 <rubdos[m]> I don't expect him to be here, but I do expect him to know when the meeting is :-)
13:05:10 <BKJ621> All: you may have got an invite to a recurring every second week meeting
13:05:28 <BKJ621> Including Tom Godden
13:05:44 <rubdos[m]> It's still being spam-checked by some servers.
13:06:04 <Labhraich> That looks easy enough to parse
13:06:07 <danshearer> okidoke so here is the last "misc" point I know of
13:06:22 <danshearer> and I am going to try to set up a vote :-)
13:06:48 <danshearer> reads the meetbot docs at https://hcoop-meetbot.readthedocs.io   :-)
13:07:24 <Labhraich> You start with a "#motion do we want to have a vote?", everybody votes then you #close it
13:07:27 <danshearer> #motion So far, the Meetbot seems easy to use, and if the output is good we should keep it
13:07:27 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Voting is open
13:07:38 <Labhraich> #vote +1
13:07:45 <danshearer> #vote +1
13:07:53 <gabby_bch> #vote +1
13:07:54 <rubdos[m]> #vote +1
13:08:01 <BKJ621> #vote +1
13:08:04 <danshearer> #close 
13:08:04 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Motion accepted: 5 in favor to 0 opposed
13:08:05 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: In favor: Labhraich, danshearer, gabby_bch, rubdos[m], BKJ621
13:08:06 <lumosql-meetbot> danshearer: Opposed:
13:08:12 <danshearer> coool!
13:08:16 <rubdos[m]> fancy
13:08:31 <Labhraich> So we know that the bot can count up to 5
13:08:32 <danshearer> ok, I think that's the end of the meeting. Did someone order food?
13:08:47 <BKJ621> sorry
13:08:58 <danshearer> #endmeeting