08:07:00 <dan-shearer[m]> #startmeeting 
08:07:00 <lumosql-meetbot> dan-shearer[m]: Meeting started at 2022-06-24T08:07+0000
08:07:01 <lumosql-meetbot> dan-shearer[m]: Current chairs: dan-shearer[m]
08:07:02 <lumosql-meetbot> dan-shearer[m]: Useful commands: #action #info #idea #link #topic #motion #vote #close #endmeeting
08:07:02 <bjk621[m]> #here Björn
08:07:03 <lumosql-meetbot> dan-shearer[m]: See also: https://hcoop-meetbot.readthedocs.io/en/stable/
08:07:04 <lumosql-meetbot> dan-shearer[m]: Participants should now identify themselves with '#here' or with an alias like '#here FirstLast'
08:07:10 <moonshine[m]> #here Gabby
08:07:27 <dan-shearer[m]> #here Dan
08:07:45 <bjk621[m]> #here Björn
08:07:55 <bjk621[m]> if I was too quick
08:08:27 <dan-shearer[m]> #meetingname Team catchup
08:08:27 <lumosql-meetbot> dan-shearer[m]: Meeting name set to: Team catchup
08:09:01 <dan-shearer[m]> #topic Administrative items
08:09:05 <bjk621[m]> If possible I would like us to be quick today. It is Midsummer in Sweden
08:09:20 <moonshine[m]> Happy Midsummer !
08:09:21 <dan-shearer[m]> #info Labhraich probably won't be here today due to network connection problems
08:09:37 <dan-shearer[m]> #info Ruben may be here in time for the meeting, but if its quick he won't be
08:09:57 <bjk621[m]> We do not have to be that quick, he said 15min
08:10:16 <dan-shearer[m]> #topic Documentation
08:10:50 <dan-shearer[m]> #info Dan has done many biblatex references, and committed the first few this morning.
08:11:08 <dan-shearer[m]> #info Moonshine has been unable to commit work due to disk full problem, now fixed
08:11:44 <bjk621[m]> Where can a mere mortal like me see the results?
08:12:09 <dan-shearer[m]> #info Gabby and Dan refactored the doc tree together two weeks ago, so there is a makefile that generates the Lumo website and all docs in one.
08:13:03 <dan-shearer[m]> bjk621: there are two kinds of things to look at. I will link to both
08:13:03 <rubdos[m]> #here Ruben
08:13:30 <bjk621[m]> dan-shearer: thanks!
08:13:57 <bjk621[m]> What about the slide-deck?
08:15:14 <dan-shearer[m]> #link This is the demo/staging version of the new LumoSQL website: https://web.lumosql.org/ . Gabby has made this using the mdbook tool from the Rust project
08:15:28 <bjk621[m]> #info Björn had a chat with the senior partner at Openocean capital Ralf Wahlberg? thanks to Dan
08:15:53 <dan-shearer[m]> #info The idea is that the Fossil SCM website will be a link off this, and that this will replace the current https://lumosql.org
08:16:12 <rubdos[m]> dan-shearer[m]: That looks quite beautiful!
08:17:15 <dan-shearer[m]> bjk621: you bring up an interesting point. This is an open source project, with everything in public including minutes of this meeting. At some point people (potentially including some present in this meeting) might be seeking outside funding. But should that be in public minutes?
08:18:10 <bjk621[m]> Ha, maybe not
08:19:20 <bjk621[m]> Let's keep it out of the public minutes for now
08:19:45 <bjk621[m]> Eventully we will need more money
08:19:53 <dan-shearer[m]> #link Björn asked where the references are visible. Here is the raw source: https://lumosql.org/src/lumosql/file?name=references/lumosql-datastore-analysis.bib . The processed version will be generated by Gabby's makefile
08:20:23 <dan-shearer[m]> bjk621: not sure if that is classed as "mere mortal" or not
08:20:53 <dan-shearer[m]> Ruben De Smet: yes it is beautiful. Gabby has done a good job.
08:21:02 <rubdos[m]> Yes indeed
08:21:06 <dan-shearer[m]> moonshine: thanks, if I didn't say that earlier
08:21:08 <rubdos[m]> Very pretty
08:21:30 <dan-shearer[m]> Dan took some documentation tasks
08:21:57 <moonshine[m]> thanks to the creator of mdbook making my job easy
08:22:01 <dan-shearer[m]> #action Dan Add knowledgebase papers to bibliography, and add footnotes for each
08:22:02 <bjk621[m]> On the refences: I see some. Question to you: Is the close to 100% or 5%? I have no clue what to expect
08:22:15 <dan-shearer[m]> This is about 10%
08:22:21 <bjk621[m]> Thanks
08:22:31 <rubdos[m]> moonshine[m]: I'll tell him :-)
08:22:34 <dan-shearer[m]> I have a lot here and then I got distracted doing system administration on the virtual machine
08:23:13 <bjk621[m]> So you believe we will have 50-ish eventually
08:23:21 <dan-shearer[m]> #action Dan Add MongoDB to Database Encryption in knowledgebase and biblatex references
08:23:51 <dan-shearer[m]> bjk621: I think 50 will be the minimum start, and I expect that in a matter of days
08:24:00 <bjk621[m]> wow!!
08:24:34 <dan-shearer[m]> I discover I did a lot of preparatory reading and research and learning about obscure things inside databases
08:25:01 <bjk621[m]> Maybe we are not surprised ...
08:25:11 <dan-shearer[m]> #action Dan Modify 2021 Google Summer of Code (unaccepted) proposal to be ready for 2023
08:25:44 <dan-shearer[m]> #action Dan modify Savepoints doc to explain relevance to LumoSQL
08:26:16 <dan-shearer[m]> #action write first document on cryptography in LumoSQL, as accessible by mortals, seeking advice from Ruben
08:26:41 <dan-shearer[m]> moonshine: Do you have things to add here while on the docs topic?
08:27:15 <bjk621[m]> Feel free to test run it on me. If I cannot get it you are way out ...
08:27:38 <moonshine[m]> #action Gabby will write a statistical analysis of benchmarks chapter
08:28:55 <rubdos[m]> <dan-shearer[m]> "#action Dan Add MongoDB to..." <- I just added it to the ABE .bib file
08:30:27 <dan-shearer[m]> #link This is a fun point, not really core business... Dan has submitted the talk http://paste.c-net.org/GrovelBellman to the event https://www.dounetherabbithole.co.uk at the Douniversity, https://www.dounetherabbithole.co.uk/douniversity-applications
08:30:45 <dan-shearer[m]> That will test whether or not the meetbot can do multiple links!
08:31:01 <dan-shearer[m]> My concept is that if I can explain that, then I do in fact understand the concept.
08:31:40 <dan-shearer[m]> And I have found that it is quite challenging. Except for Where's Wally, that is a brilliant way of illustrating the most basic level.
08:32:34 <rubdos[m]> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOGdb1CTu5c
08:32:39 <rubdos[m]> Inspiration ^
08:33:19 <dan-shearer[m]> If anyone wants to turn up to that festival in Scotland next month, I'll be there. It is part of my physical recovery I hope, lots of outside air
08:33:23 <dan-shearer[m]> Ruben De Smet: thanks a lot. And maybe that should be a reference too.
08:34:12 <dan-shearer[m]> Does anyone have anything else to add to docs/talks etc?
08:35:44 <rubdos[m]> not from my side
08:36:36 <dan-shearer[m]> bjk621: are you familiar with Where's Wally?
08:36:57 <dan-shearer[m]> You have to find the little person in each confusing picture on each page of the book: https://compote.slate.com/images/da10c202-1283-4e22-9edf-a2a26f5880dc.jpg
08:36:58 <bjk621[m]> bop, I have to read-up
08:37:05 <rubdos[m]> Isn't it usually "where's waldo" in English?
08:37:06 <bjk621[m]> *nop
08:37:27 <dan-shearer[m]> Ruben De Smet: No. Only in whatever it is Anglos speak in the United States.
08:37:43 <rubdos[m]> Aha.
08:37:49 <dan-shearer[m]> Which is particularly painful for robotics researchers like me, because "waldo" means something quite different.
08:38:06 <dan-shearer[m]> "Wally" means "silly person" in English from England.
08:38:17 <rubdos[m]> Aha!
08:38:30 <dan-shearer[m]> (I used to develop wool handling robots and other projects.)
08:39:49 <dan-shearer[m]> So, Björn, if I show you this book from three metres away, and then I get some scissors and destroy the book in a way you cannot see, and then I show you the picture of the little person, you know that I know the secret of where he is hidden.
08:40:20 <dan-shearer[m]> But you don't know where he is hidden, and you will just have to read the book yourself with your grandchildren.
08:40:52 <dan-shearer[m]> It's a gentle start to zero knowledge proofs.
08:40:59 <rubdos[m]> It's a fun one indeed.
08:41:50 <bjk621[m]> zero prof I got a good intro to in Brussels. Where's Wally is unknown to me
08:42:28 <rubdos[m]> :-)
08:42:46 <dan-shearer[m]> Ruben De Smet: This is a robotic waldo: https://www.instructables.com/Build-a-Waldo-for-Arduino-Robot-Arms/
08:42:50 <dan-shearer[m]> Ok next topic
08:42:58 <dan-shearer[m]> Which I suspect is Ruben
08:43:19 <rubdos[m]> I don't have a lot to report due to time, but I suppose it is.
08:43:31 <dan-shearer[m]> ok then
08:43:38 <rubdos[m]> Do you do the #topic?
08:43:38 <dan-shearer[m]> #topic ABE
08:44:08 <rubdos[m]> So, I've been hosting a hackathon on my Signal client last week, which was very productive
08:44:11 <rubdos[m]> 116 files changed, 7375 insertions(+), 5086 deletions(-)
08:44:26 <rubdos[m]> But that also means I didn't really have the time to work on the SQL-PE part
08:45:00 <bjk621[m]> Please remind me the abbreviation ABE
08:45:05 <rubdos[m]> There's some other overhead filling in the gaps, and most probably that will also take a significant chunk of time the next few weeks. I will try to split my time however.
08:45:11 <rubdos[m]> attribute-based encryption
08:45:18 <bjk621[m]> yes, thanks
08:45:21 <rubdos[m]> SQL-PE = SQL privilege encryption
08:45:25 <dan-shearer[m]> While you summarise SQL-PE (which I should have made the topic rather than ABE I guess) I will put some questions together that might help get perspective
08:46:10 <rubdos[m]> In slightly related news, my two-year-old paper on zero-knowledge proofs has been accepted with major revisions, and that's what will take most of my time the next few weeks.
08:46:53 <rubdos[m]> #info Martina is having exams, but has started recently again on working on the ABE backend for SQL-PE. She's working on the encryption part now, moving on from the secret sharing.
08:47:04 <rubdos[m]> #info Ruben has been spending time elsewhere and has nothing much to report.
08:48:03 <dan-shearer[m]> I think this is the case: We have a concept implementation in Rust of SSS, from Martina. We expect a concept implementation of ABE also in Rust from Martina. We will then be able to ask questions on a simple commandline such as "here is a key, does it grant access to an already-created encrypted file, and if so, what kind of access?"
08:48:10 <bjk621[m]> Thanks for the sql-pe explaination. When you are moving among different fields abbreviations become hard
08:49:06 <rubdos[m]> dan-shearer[m]: That minus the "kind of access".
08:49:16 <rubdos[m]> Either it's access, or it's no access.
08:49:30 <rubdos[m]> The granularity will exist in the SQL-PE system, not in the ABE system.
08:49:32 <rubdos[m]> potato potato
08:50:29 <dan-shearer[m]> Of course. That is why we are going to rename ABE to be ABEP, which stands for "Attribute-based Encrypted Potatoes". Got it, thanks.
08:50:55 <rubdos[m]> Ah. Not SQL potato encryption?
08:51:02 <rubdos[m]> Thought that one was obvious.
08:51:32 <dan-shearer[m]> Or, at the practical high level, the ABE demo from the mathematician will not be capable of implementing a multilevel password store, but SQL-PE will be.
08:51:51 <rubdos[m]> Yes, I think that's a good comparison.
08:51:58 <rubdos[m]> comparison is a bad word
08:52:02 <rubdos[m]> it's early and yesterday was late.
08:53:04 <dan-shearer[m]> Reminder: Ruben and Dan and Claudio agreed previously than a very useful first demonstration "product" for LumoSQL would be a database store. Everyone needs one, nobody has a good one they can trust and which is also convenient.
08:53:11 <rubdos[m]> password store, I suppose?
08:53:15 <dan-shearer[m]> aargh yes
08:53:19 <rubdos[m]> #info Ruben and Dan and Claudio agreed previously than a very useful first demonstration "product" for LumoSQL would be a password store. Everyone needs one, nobody has a good one they can trust and which is also convenient.
08:53:53 <dan-shearer[m]> ok so you also told us that Ruben is 50% time on SQL-PE for the next couple of weeks?
08:54:11 <rubdos[m]> Will be more like 25%, but that's the goal.
08:54:27 <rubdos[m]> But at least it's some time.
08:54:30 <bjk621[m]> When can we expect a first cut of this demo-product?
08:54:32 <dan-shearer[m]> ok can you mention that in the minutes so I can't forget it
08:54:46 <rubdos[m]> #info Ruben to spend 25-50% of time on SQL-PE the next few weeks.
08:55:32 <dan-shearer[m]> #action Dan to produce first top-level design for Password Store demo
08:56:10 <bjk621[m]> great
08:57:00 <dan-shearer[m]> bjk621: it also is the minimal demo I could think of for all core privacy features of LumoSQL, with magic  - a file anyone can email to anyone, but only people with the right keys can see the various levels of password.
08:57:12 <bjk621[m]> + tshirt-sizing so we have some idea of when we can start using if
08:57:40 <bjk621[m]> I believe this is a great demo for many reasons
08:57:57 <rubdos[m]> yes
08:59:12 <dan-shearer[m]> It also allows us to explain that we have something extremely valid even without solving the Key Authority problem. We definitely need to provide some solutions for the Key Authority, but it is not necessary to still gain unique advantages.
09:00:01 <rubdos[m]> So many interesting problems, so little time!
09:00:37 <dan-shearer[m]> Ruben will you be updating the notional RFC as part of your next bit of work? I have kept out of that deliberately.
09:01:05 <rubdos[m]> It might, but I'd rather spend time on the SQL-PE interface for now.
09:01:13 <dan-shearer[m]> ack
09:01:13 <rubdos[m]> If that's more or less done, I should write in the RFC
09:01:30 <dan-shearer[m]> Ok that's helpful.
09:02:05 <dan-shearer[m]> Right. Next topci would be Claudio's stuff, but he is in exile on the Island of St Helena, or something.
09:02:50 <bjk621[m]> ... the modern variant of ...
09:02:56 <rubdos[m]> You're confusing Claudio with the president of France.
09:03:04 <rubdos[m]> Caesar Macron.
09:03:17 <dan-shearer[m]> Easily done.
09:03:59 <rubdos[m]> will now stop butchering history.
09:04:52 <bjk621[m]> Well Macron is maybe not the first person I would send to St Helena. I have a rather long list of candidates ...
09:04:55 <rubdos[m]> Ha.
09:05:08 <bjk621[m]> I will stop too
09:05:12 <rubdos[m]> I would agree.
09:05:41 <rubdos[m]> I think we can assume Claudio is doing good work, and we'll hear all about it when they invent internet in France.
09:06:26 <dan-shearer[m]> Don't get too smart. Minitel gave the ordinary people of France the internet twenty years before anyone else. But ok, next topic.
09:06:30 <bjk621[m]> Now you are cruel - remember "minitel"? (if that was the name)
09:06:46 <rubdos[m]> Nice
09:06:46 <dan-shearer[m]> ha h ah ah ah ah
09:06:49 <rubdos[m]> That's a city in France.
09:06:52 <dan-shearer[m]> Yes, Björn, we are geniuses together.
09:07:36 <rubdos[m]> So, this was an interesting meeting. The only IRC participant today was lumosql-meetbot .
09:07:39 <rubdos[m]> I think.
09:07:55 <dan-shearer[m]> There are people in their 80s today in France who ran internet businesses around 45 years ago.
09:08:28 <dan-shearer[m]> So what is the final topic, people? I am out of ideas.
09:08:32 <rubdos[m]> Misc ?
09:08:53 <rubdos[m]> Oh maybe worth mentioning: our Circuitree zero-knowledge work has caught the attention of some people at EPFL. They're interested in it, and we might move to Switzerland for a few weeks or months.
09:09:25 <bjk621[m]> #info I still owe NLnet some paperwork. I am delayed. Reason: crisis in my daytime job
09:09:27 <rubdos[m]> Ah well. That's all from me.
09:09:34 <dan-shearer[m]> #topic A Miscellany of Items
09:09:52 <dan-shearer[m]> #action Björn still owes NLnet some paperwork. I am delayed. Reason: crisis in my daytime job
09:10:17 <bjk621[m]> #accepterd , aim for end of the weekend
09:10:17 <lumosql-meetbot> bjk621[m]: Unknown command: #accepterd
09:10:42 <dan-shearer[m]> Ruben De Smet:  EPFL are intensely practical. Once the theoretical basis is proved to their satisfaction, I suspect they will really like applications such as LumoSQL.
09:11:14 <rubdos[m]> Yep. Can't divulge many details yet, but thought I'd let you know.
09:11:42 <bjk621[m]> Are we about to wrap up?
09:11:49 <dan-shearer[m]> YEs
09:12:45 <bjk621[m]> Great -- the traditional way to celebrate Midsummer is thru booze, but has never been my way
09:13:08 <rubdos[m]> bjk621[m]: What's your way?
09:13:35 <bjk621[m]> some limited amount of alcohol + herring
09:13:44 <dan-shearer[m]> I am about to end meeting... Gabby? Anyone?
09:14:18 <moonshine[m]> nothing elese from me
09:14:22 <moonshine[m]> s/elese/else/
09:14:51 <bjk621[m]> Next meeting in 2 weeks on 1000 Brussels?
09:14:57 <dan-shearer[m]> agreed
09:15:57 <rubdos[m]> 👍️
09:16:15 <bjk621[m]> I have no clue on vacation. I will work more or less the whole summer
09:16:44 <rubdos[m]> I have no clue either, but I will take and need some.
09:16:55 <rubdos[m]> Most probably the start of August...
09:16:56 <dan-shearer[m]> #action Dan to tell team what days he is on holiday (especially at Doune The Rabbit Hole, to which everyone is invited if you can figure out how :-)
09:17:14 <rubdos[m]> I might drive to Scotland 🤔
09:17:33 <dan-shearer[m]> You are welcome
09:18:13 <bjk621[m]> I would love to but not this year
09:19:15 <bjk621[m]> Will we close this meeting now? I gtr soon
09:22:42 <rubdos[m]> slaps dan-shearer
09:23:50 <rubdos[m]> I suspect Dan will close the meeting when he sees this.
09:24:21 <dan-shearer[m]> #endmeeting